1 00:01:35,320 --> 00:01:39,518 You know, Mister Foiret, it's strange how few people remember him. 2 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:42,148 Those who do, don't call him a monster. 3 00:01:42,320 --> 00:01:45,995 More of a Heydrich than an Eichmann. 4 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:49,075 But he terrified everyone. 5 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:53,028 Rudi, a Campari Soda and a coffee, please. 6 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:01,997 But if you ask them: What kind of man was Kessler? 7 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:05,630 Then they are vague, uncertain. -What difference does it make? 8 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:09,190 It's been so long. Nobody cares anymore. 9 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:14,198 He is a thing of the past. That whole Nazi thing is a thing of the past. 10 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:17,950 I wonder. 11 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:21,430 Well, that's what the program is about. We'll see. 12 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:25,559 Why are you after Kessler? -It's good material. 13 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:29,395 I do it for the money, so better than people whose job it is. 14 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:32,028 Don't worry people when you're poking around like that? 15 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:35,476 Mister Foiret, public opinion doesn't matter. 16 00:02:35,640 --> 00:02:40,236 Just ignore it, it will blow over. I learned that from the Nazis. 17 00:02:46,920 --> 00:02:50,276 do you mind first to look at the house? 18 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:52,237 Of course not. 19 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:00,474 Hello, I'm Mrs. Durnford. 20 00:03:00,640 --> 00:03:04,918 Can we take this to the hotel? -Certainly. The car is ready. 21 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:21,478 Excuse me, I still have to go to the BRT. -Naturally. See you in the studio. 22 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:36,678 What a beautiful square. I'm glad we're here. 23 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:39,877 It's been six years ever since my mother brought me here. 24 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:44,989 We only stayed a week or two. Then she got sick again. 25 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:48,554 What was your grandparents' house? 26 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:51,431 That right there. 27 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:00,592 My mother and I went there watch it every day. 28 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:06,357 Don't you wish it was yours? -No. Not really. 29 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:09,717 I wouldn't want to leave Israel. 30 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:13,309 I'm sorry, I'm late. 31 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:15,391 I spoke to Foiret. 32 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:18,313 He exploits the Candide. I told you about him. 33 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:21,995 He ran Lifeline during the war. You wouldn't say it. 34 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:26,950 They knew more than a thousand airmen back to England... 35 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:29,270 You have to respect that. 36 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:36,438 What interests me is that Kessler regularly ate at his restaurant. 37 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:38,955 They saw him very often. 38 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:41,998 Can he identify him? -We think so. 39 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:45,277 But he's an old man. We'll see. 40 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:49,433 Come to my identification round. You might meet interesting people. 41 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:54,993 Or do you find interesting material? -I want to stay in the background. 42 00:04:55,160 --> 00:05:00,757 Oh yes, how smoothly that financial investigation? You would keep me informed. 43 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:05,471 I said: in exchange for what you have. Let's cross right away. 44 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:11,880 But I can tell you one thing: His finances aren't exactly average. 45 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:14,793 Herr Dorf has strange affairs in his administration. 46 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:18,157 If he's Kessler, that would explain a lot. 47 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:04,637 Good afternoon. Hello. Mr Van Eyck, please. 48 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:08,110 And your name is? -Albert Foiret. 49 00:06:08,280 --> 00:06:10,032 Albert... 50 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:12,678 Madam? 51 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:20,914 Don't you recognize me anymore, Albert? 52 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:27,190 Monique. 53 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:33,916 They already said that they invited you. 54 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:38,870 Would you like to take the elevator to the fourth floor? take? Room 406. 55 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:46,876 I had no idea that we would meet here. 56 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:50,518 How are you? -Good. 57 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:53,478 Well, not bad for an old man. 58 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:10,792 Do you still have the Candide? -Yes. And six other restaurants. 59 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:12,916 The Candide is my favorite. I still live there. 60 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:15,992 Can I come and have a look? -Certainly. How long are you staying? 61 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:20,153 Just three days. -Would you like to have dinner with me tomorrow? 62 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:21,673 Very much. 63 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:28,278 How nice to have you both here. Mr Van Eyck: Madame Durnford. 64 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:33,468 Mr Foiret, come with me to the assembly space, then we can have a chat. 65 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:38,229 Mrs Durnford, I'm so happy that you want to watch the movie. 66 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:43,394 I like doing it. It's a beautiful one opportunity to see some old friends. 67 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:46,632 You will have seen Kessler before than most people. 68 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:50,031 Yes, probably. He often ate at the Candide. 69 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:56,275 That's what Mister Foiret already said. Unbelievable that he didn't suspect you of Lifeline. 70 00:07:56,440 --> 00:07:58,556 We got lucky. 71 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:02,033 Look at that. 72 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:09,077 This is my assistant, Helene Sonnefeld. My editing—husband Wim Daniel. 73 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:11,595 Mrs Durnford and Mr Foiret. 74 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:13,352 Please sit down. 75 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:16,637 I want you to look to this rough cut. 76 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:20,031 Fast forward to the Dorf interview, Wim. 77 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:25,840 Dorf Industries was born like Athena, all grown up. 78 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:29,436 One moment it was a wasteland, shortly afterwards it was there. 79 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:33,673 But Dorf only appeared on stage in 1950. 80 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:37,879 What you see now is a part from an interview I had with him. 81 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:39,712 Turn it up a bit, Wim. 82 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:45,193 ...trade with South America? -Yes, we have good facilities there. 83 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:55,352 That you in reality Ludwig Kessler, from Berlin. 84 00:08:56,560 --> 00:08:58,790 Excuse me? 85 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:03,033 Real name is Ludwig Kessler. You were born in Berlin. 86 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:06,470 That's not correct. 87 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:10,758 I am Manfred Dorf. I was born in Krefeld. 88 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:14,071 I don't know any... Ludwig Kessler? 89 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:17,232 Can you please explain why there is none documents are about Manfred Dorf... 90 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:21,393 ...from before 1947? No birth certificate, nothing known about his parents? 91 00:09:21,560 --> 00:09:24,233 Can you turn it up a little? -You must understand... 92 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:28,518 ...that many buildings have been bombed, at the end of WWII. 93 00:09:28,680 --> 00:09:34,232 Thousands of documents were lost. That is common knowledge. 94 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:37,312 Your late wife was Belgian, right? -That's right. 95 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:41,029 Do you deny that you were in the Low Countries, during the war? 96 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:45,716 Most definitely. I was in the industry at the time. -Silence it for a moment. 97 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:49,031 There's more of that. Now, Mister Foiret... 98 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:52,078 Do you recognize Dorf? Is it Kessler? 99 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:56,631 It's hard to be sure, after all this time. People change. 100 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:06,029 Mrs Durnford? -Oh, yes. 101 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:08,270 That man is Kessler. 102 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:12,479 Are you sure? -Yes. Some things you don't forget. 103 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:15,996 As soon as I heard his voice, the hairs on the back of my neck stood up. 104 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:19,994 Great. Thank you very much. 105 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:25,359 Would you like to go to the room next door? There is someone you would like to see. 106 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:27,875 I'll be right there. 107 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:45,197 What do you mean? Those are two identifications. 108 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:47,590 Two out of five. That's not great. 109 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:51,389 I need to be more confident I would like to turn this over to the police. 110 00:10:51,560 --> 00:10:53,869 I've turned up stuff that disgusts you. 111 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:57,112 Take a look. I'll show you the pieces that I had to let out. 112 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:00,158 I want to take a copy back with me to Bonn. 113 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:02,356 We will make VHS copies. 114 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:05,478 Wim, make sure the gentleman gets a copy. 115 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:10,915 Here it is. Make yourself comfortable. 116 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:17,877 Natalie. 117 00:11:21,560 --> 00:11:25,348 Delicious. Wonderful to see you. -I think so too. 118 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:30,071 Why didn't you come sooner? -Well, another country, a family... 119 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:33,471 You haven't changed one bit. -Not you either. 120 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:37,030 Are you happy? -Yes, I'm fine. 121 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:41,034 I have a 24 year old son. His name is Michael. 122 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:43,953 He wants to join the army, just like his father. But Stephen said... 123 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:47,590 There will be plenty of time to talk about that. 124 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:51,833 Would you like some coffee? There is also cake. 125 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:53,877 Hugo will be there soon. 126 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:58,477 Albert you didn't tell me anything. -It was a surprise. 127 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:03,668 Did he show you that movie too? and that interview with Kessler? 128 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:06,673 It was really Kessler, without a doubt. -That's what I said. 129 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:10,753 Albert wasn't sure. -I didn't want to speak out. 130 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:12,638 But who cares? 131 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:15,519 It does matter. I thought he was dead. 132 00:12:15,680 --> 00:12:18,399 There you are. Good that Helene is taking care of you. 133 00:12:18,560 --> 00:12:21,279 Shall we sit around the table? And what about chatting? 134 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:24,352 Mrs Durnford, please take a seat. Mr Foiret... 135 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:26,670 Hugo van Eyck's office. 136 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:31,115 Yes, I get it. Why does she want to talk to him? 137 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:36,429 Hugo, there is a Miss Rak for you. 138 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:41,116 Who is that? Do we know her? -You wrote to her mother, in Israel. 139 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:44,795 I get it already. Send her to the editing room. 140 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:47,918 Can you send her up? I'm going to the elevator. 141 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:52,278 May I ask what this is about? -Of course you can. 142 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:56,149 As you well know, I create the program In Our Time. 143 00:12:56,320 --> 00:13:01,030 It is investigative, controversial: We look at interesting things. 144 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:05,352 Wednesday's program is about Nazi war criminals. 145 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:09,035 That is topical again. -Isn't that a little late? 146 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:12,476 Shouldn't we start the war now? leave us behind? 147 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:15,473 I have been researching this matter for years. 148 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:19,394 I have a lot more material. You won't believe what's still going on. 149 00:13:19,560 --> 00:13:25,795 In Europe and South America. Real. Nazism is like a kind of mafia. 150 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:32,919 Hugo, she's here. -Okay then. 151 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:38,632 I'll just brush that girl off then I'll come back. Go ahead, eh? 152 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:46,478 Is that man Kessler? Possibly yes. 153 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:51,111 Hello, I am Hugo van Eyck. I can give you a few minutes. 154 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:53,510 Mical Rak. 155 00:13:53,680 --> 00:13:55,113 From Tel Aviv. 156 00:13:56,520 --> 00:13:59,318 You wrote to my mother, a few weeks ago. 157 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:01,755 It was about that Kessler. 158 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:06,310 We wrote to a lot of people who suffered because of this man. 159 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:09,074 I get it. -We sent a lot of letters. 160 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:13,472 Your letter did not say what you wanted, but i found out. 161 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:16,438 You think Kessler isn't dead. 162 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:19,433 I'm sure, but I can't prove it. 163 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:24,196 I want to know. It's important. -Because of your mother? 164 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:28,148 Kessler sent my mother and her entire family to Dachau. 165 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:32,835 Do you have the Israel file? 166 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:35,833 Did your mother say that? -Yes. She survived. 167 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:39,356 You see, he wanted their house. -What was your name again? 168 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:41,715 Mical Rak. 169 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:46,670 He wanted their house, on Grande Place, for its employees. 170 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:51,630 My family was Jewish, so he threw my mother and her family... 171 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:54,872 ...don't just look it out, but he sent them to Dachau. 172 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:59,989 Was your mother the only survivor? -She never really left Dachau. 173 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:03,072 What do you mean? -You know the stories: 174 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:06,596 She saw her brother was murdered by a guard. 175 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:10,548 One of the bodies she had to cremated, was that of her father. 176 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:14,235 How old was your mother then? -Seventeen. 177 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:18,868 After her parents and brothers had died, she managed to survive... 178 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:24,068 ...because she was young and her body could sell for extra food. 179 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:28,074 I get it. -She passed away last March. 180 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:32,156 I buried her in the war cemetery outside Tel Aviv. 181 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:35,357 I found your letter among her things. 182 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:40,669 What about your father? -I never knew him. 183 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:43,354 My mother didn't know his name either. 184 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:47,354 She sat for much of her life in a home in Tel Aviv. 185 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:51,593 She lived in a kibbutz for a while. -When was that? 186 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:56,276 At the time of the Suez operation. Then I was conceived. 187 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:58,112 Why did she leave the kibbutz? 188 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:03,832 After she went from Dachau to Israel, she was never mentally healthy for long. 189 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:07,834 When she was pregnant with me, they sent her back to the home. 190 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:09,797 She also died there. 191 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:27,712 Father, Herr Leitgeber wants to speak to you. It's important and urgent. 192 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:29,438 Okay then. 193 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:32,034 Excuse me. I'll be right back. 194 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:37,873 But you don't fly, do you? -Because of this, you mean? 195 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:41,828 I flew for another two years with a Junkers 88, after this happened. 196 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:45,276 I was the very first autopilot. 197 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:47,715 I'll get straight to the point, Director. 198 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:51,714 According to the bank, there is light someone through your bills. 199 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:55,391 Are you sure? 200 00:16:55,560 --> 00:17:00,395 Pretty sure. Bankers know it like one of their clients is being investigated. 201 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:04,269 That's rare with people of your stature. 202 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:08,797 Why would anyone investigate you? Your creditworthiness is established. 203 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:11,997 But it happened anyway. Excuse me for a moment. 204 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:20,953 You can't figure out who's there infringes on my private affairs? 205 00:17:21,120 --> 00:17:24,908 I have nothing to hide, but I find it annoying. 206 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:31,315 Naturally. It was brought to our attention by Becker and Seeburg, in London. 207 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:34,392 British bankers are very sensitive to this. 208 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:39,714 And we think that all eight accounts, both private and business... 209 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:44,192 ...as well as the Handelsbank in Amsterdam, have been viewed. 210 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:51,234 But such research can be done alone be an official action? 211 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:54,198 In your case: yes. 212 00:17:57,680 --> 00:17:59,636 Is this official or social? 213 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:03,315 Does that matter much? -No, but otherwise we could have a drink. 214 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:07,109 It's official. But not extreme, if you get my drift. 215 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:09,430 No, but don't make it too exciting. 216 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:14,390 It's your territory, Tom. Your West German agents must help us. 217 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:18,075 Really? -Just look at this. 218 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:21,152 They're interviews for a Belgian TV program. 219 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:26,952 The BRT sent it to the BBC for commentary and archive images. 220 00:18:27,120 --> 00:18:30,954 I just got it on my plate. -Someone we know? 221 00:18:31,120 --> 00:18:33,953 Yes and no. We know about the man... 222 00:18:34,120 --> 00:18:37,590 ...but not that he might war criminal and Nazi. 223 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:40,035 It's quite embarrassing. 224 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:44,549 Does that even matter to anyone? -This is different. 225 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:49,157 He is a big industrialist. The government does a lot of business with him. 226 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:53,154 Last year he was allowed to build a factory, here in England. 227 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:55,515 So people are going to be embarrassed. 228 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:58,148 What should I do about it then? 229 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:02,757 I can't really get involved with it. Not officially, then. 230 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:07,710 Can you put it down to your friends, possibly? 231 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:12,396 The Germans have to come clean? -Something like that, yeah. 232 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:16,235 Can you get your colleague started? while it is still possible? 233 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:18,356 They seem almost aware already. 234 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:21,318 I'm looking at this and see what I can do. 235 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:23,789 Hello, Tom. -Goodbye. 236 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:40,873 Whatever you say, Maurer: I'm being vetted. 237 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:44,473 It's not our agency. Then I would know. 238 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:47,393 I want to know if it has something official. 239 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:53,428 Are you sure? -I sense something like that instinctively. 240 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:58,549 Questions have been asked, My bankers suspect this too. 241 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:00,199 The question is: who? 242 00:20:00,360 --> 00:20:03,830 And that must follow: Why? And: How much do they know? 243 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:06,389 Does anyone have a reason to? 244 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:09,950 No. In my opinion there is only one answer. 245 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:15,678 Remember that TV interview with that Belgian, Van Eyck? 246 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:19,071 He thinks he knows my identity, but can't prove anything. 247 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:21,674 I already thought he was wouldn't leave it at that. 248 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:25,549 I think he knows someone. Here, at the Bureau. 249 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:30,874 Someone who does this research. -Check this out, Maurer. 250 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:41,397 And if it's one of your people, then take him off the case. 251 00:20:44,120 --> 00:20:48,033 But isn't that suspicious? seen that interview? 252 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:52,751 Then you have to make sure it does not seem suspicious. Right, Maurer? 253 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:09,118 Maurer is no longer the same. Maybe we should replace it. 254 00:21:10,120 --> 00:21:14,636 Could your people in Brussels? do something about that interview? 255 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:17,268 And that man, then? Van Eyck. 256 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:22,592 It's not that simple with people you know persons. It can be risky. 257 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:26,673 And when the program is broadcast? -Make sure you're gone... 258 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:31,118 ...and you are not available. They can't have any official proof. 259 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:36,798 In a few months no one will remember remember that program, let alone you. 260 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:53,275 If only I knew what that program was about. 261 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:56,238 I'm trying to figure that out before you leave for England. 262 00:21:56,400 --> 00:22:00,712 In the meantime, try to stay away at the factory. 263 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:12,231 You know best that he will disappear without a trace. 264 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:16,598 There are months of research in those files and in these tapes. 265 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:22,596 This program is going to hit like a bomb. I'm going to do two or three more. 266 00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:25,911 And no one's gonna ruin my work understood? 267 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:29,152 You don't care what that man has done. 268 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:31,788 Come on. I only care about making... 269 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:35,157 ...of the best programs about interesting things. 270 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:40,110 Personal vendettas against elderly Nazis yields nothing. 271 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:45,400 Wim, let him lower his eyes when I start talking about Brussels. 272 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:51,398 Are you still there now? -Just tell me where he lives. 273 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:55,792 I need to get this program dubbed. I know you made it right. 274 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:59,316 I'll give you Dorf's address, and then you give me... 275 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:03,837 ...anything that connects him to Kessler. Agreed to meet. 276 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:07,276 And then you give me too everything you discover... 277 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:10,989 ...before I give you more then this paper about Dorf. 278 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:16,837 That Helene will copy for you. And do you want to go now? I'm busy. 279 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:20,793 Thank you. 280 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:27,915 Good evening, Colonel. I'll tell father you're here. 281 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:34,711 Father, Colonel Ruckert is here. 282 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:44,034 Did you pass? Partly. 283 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:50,036 I have a VHS of the program which will be broadcast in Belgium tonight. 284 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:51,553 Franz... -Would you like to see it now? 285 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:54,951 Naturally. We'll take a look at it in the study. 286 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:12,272 What would you like to drink? Whiskey. 287 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,000 Father? -The usual, please. 288 00:24:54,360 --> 00:25:00,515 Good evening. Tonight In Our Time devotes itself to Nazism. 289 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:03,797 Recent developments point out the possibility... 290 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:10,559 ...that fascism is on the rise again: a threat to peace and stability. 291 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:17,159 An image of fear for the Jews, who already... so many members in the past half century. 292 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:27,471 Is it just a group of young people? pretend to be National Socialists? 293 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:34,037 Is it a last action by the old guard? who survived Hitler's downfall? 294 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:37,112 Or is it the deep-seated wish... 295 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:41,398 ...of those who ever Supported Hitler, Mussolini and Franco? 296 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:45,599 That the triumphs and the benefits of those dictatorships... 297 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:49,275 ...are more important than human rights and freedoms? 298 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:55,709 We're talking at least one important one German industrialist, a famous man... 299 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:59,270 ...whose background nothing is what it seems. 300 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:02,910 Just outside Buenos Aires is the village of Legasca. 301 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:07,437 A small community lives there of former Nazis. 302 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:11,388 They speak German there. The village mainly speaks German. 303 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:16,475 There we found Karl Gottlieb Graun, Hauptscharfuhrer in Hitler's SS. 304 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:20,792 Working in Majdanek concentration camp, where he was called 'De Slingeraar'. 305 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:25,715 A man who had a habit of picking up toddlers and grab babies by their ankles... 306 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:28,713 ...and bash their heads in against a wall. 307 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:35,310 Hauptscharfuhrer Gottlieb Graun? -I'm not. 308 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:37,869 Who are you? -Aren't you Gottlieb Graun? 309 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:40,759 No, no. I don't want to talk to you. 310 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:45,550 Were you not in Majdanek? -You are mistaken. 311 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:51,875 I'm not mistaken. You are Karl Gottlieb Graun, aka 'The Slingerer'. 312 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:53,712 No, no. You think about... 313 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:58,476 That was your name because you had children with them took their ankles to bash their heads in. 314 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:02,076 No, no. Please, you are mistaken. 315 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:07,837 That was someone else. Someone with a similar name, Braun. 316 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:13,472 I don't remember anyone like that. I was never in Majdanek. 317 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:16,473 Idiot. -Are you aware that you are being extradited? 318 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:20,519 No, please. -And that you might have to stand trial? 319 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:24,719 Like a war criminal? -That was someone else. 320 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:34,634 I am now standing in front of the head office from Dorf Industries in Krefeld. 321 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:39,430 This extremely wealthy multinational... 322 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:46,119 ...one of the largest manufacturers of plastics, medicines and explosives... 323 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:50,512 ...is apparently controlled by Manfred Dorf... 324 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,069 ...a respected citizen from West Germany. 325 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:58,075 With business interests in Switzerland, Holland, Austria and England. 326 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:02,119 But where did the money come from? for this industrial giant? 327 00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:06,193 Where did Herr Dorf come from? 328 00:28:06,360 --> 00:28:09,591 In Belgium, older people have good reasons... 329 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:12,877 ...to call himself an SS Standartenfuhrer to remember... 330 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:16,919 ...who oversaw the domestic safety during the occupation. 331 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:19,150 His name was Kessler. 332 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:23,154 Certain coincidences made us decide... 333 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:27,711 ...to take a closer look to Herr Dorf in Krefeld. 334 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:34,035 We did an interview, where I wanted to ask some unexpected questions. 335 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:39,911 Herr Dorf, it is said that your name is not Manfred Dorf at all. 336 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:44,198 That you in reality Ludwig Kessler, from Berlin. 337 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:47,630 Excuse me? 338 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:51,873 Real name is Ludwig Kessler. You were born in Berlin. 339 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,310 That's not correct. 340 00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:59,598 I am Manfred Dorf. I was born here, in Krefeld. 341 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:02,911 I don't know any... Ludwig Kessler? 342 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:07,232 Do you know why there are no documents? about Manfred Dorf before 1947? 343 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:11,109 No birth certificate, nothing about his parents? 344 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:13,077 You must understand... 345 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:17,358 ...that many buildings have been bombed, at the end of WWII. 346 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:22,719 Thousands of documents were lost. That is common knowledge. 347 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:54,274 Further episodes will continue on our quest. 348 00:29:54,440 --> 00:30:00,356 Please check back next week another episode of In Our Time. 349 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:23,795 So he escaped the dance. 350 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:31,234 Oh well, who cares? We have to think about other things now. 351 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:34,312 That was Kessler and he must pay for his actions. 352 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:39,076 Real? He fought for his country, in his way. 353 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:44,234 Can we accuse him? -He had hundreds of people killed. 354 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:48,712 Every general did that. On both sides. 355 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:52,873 Are you saying Nuremberg was a farce? What were we supposed to do then? 356 00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:55,952 Let's not argue about old cows. 357 00:30:56,120 --> 00:31:00,477 Look, I kept this one for a special occasion. 358 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:04,235 And that is now. This will be very tasty. 359 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:06,630 You haven't changed a bit yet. 360 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:14,596 And maybe it's not Kessler. 361 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:17,718 It was him. -Indeed, it was him. 362 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:21,552 Maybe we're making a huge mistake. 363 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:25,598 And who cares? It's too late. 364 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:30,314 You don't punish a quarter of a century after the crime. 365 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:32,755 Do you just want to forget about it? 366 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:38,469 I don't want to forget, Natalie. But it's just... 367 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,029 Oh well, don't ask me that. -No… 368 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:44,670 I'll ask the survivors of Auschwitz and Belsen. 369 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:48,799 I don't think they are willing to forgive and forget. 370 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:52,919 And I understand that well. I'll never forget it. 371 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:58,710 This has all been bad enough. Let's enjoy this cognac. 372 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:02,759 Natalie, Monique... To your health. 373 00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:06,993 And yours. And to absent friends. 374 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:08,832 Absent friends. 375 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:14,756 Can't you put some pressure on him? He's popular... 376 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:19,550 ...but he's just a journalist. -It's too risky. 377 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:29,878 You know best about safety of the organization takes priority. 378 00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:32,918 And what about the individual? What about me? 379 00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:39,189 I've been working on this, on mine, for years factories. It's not insignificant. 380 00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:44,150 That was the starting capital that you received from the organization was also not. 381 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:48,473 It's time for you to go into hiding. 382 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:52,315 Disappear for six months. Close this house and go to the countryside. 383 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:56,029 To a hotel, or your home. Anywhere. 384 00:32:56,200 --> 00:33:00,478 No, I'm expected in London. That's where I'm going and until then I'm staying here. 385 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:04,792 And if the press jumps on it? When does it become official? 386 00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:10,318 Then you, dear Hans, have to take care that the comrades will take me out. 387 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:18,590 And if I have to leave, I'll take that with me. Come along, Hans. 388 00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:22,753 And no one will be able to touch it without my cooperation. 389 00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:52,150 Who is that? -No idea. 390 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:55,790 Is she alone? -Only one alarm went off. 391 00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:59,472 I'll just call Karl to help me. 392 00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:04,077 Find out who it is. I'll inform father. 393 00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:08,597 Kari, look behind the house. There's someone walking there. 394 00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:26,596 What are you doing here? 395 00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:29,835 I come for Herr Dorf. 396 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,070 Regular visitors take the front door. 397 00:34:32,240 --> 00:34:34,834 Tell Herr Dorf there is an intruder. 398 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:38,069 Put your hands on that table. 399 00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:56,068 Hotel Listermann. 400 00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:08,793 Mical Rak. Jewish. 401 00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:47,957 What is? What's happening out there? -I think she escaped. 402 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:52,318 She was Jewish. That woman, Mical Rak. She had an Israeli passport. 403 00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:56,917 Have you discovered anything else? -She drove away in a Belgian car. 404 00:35:59,920 --> 00:36:02,195 No, she had a key from the Listermann hotel. 405 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:05,238 Go on. -That's all, I'm afraid. 406 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:08,392 I think this is a matter for Maurer. 407 00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:32,559 Maurer? Dorf. Now listen carefully. 408 00:36:32,720 --> 00:36:36,395 An Israeli woman just tried to enter my house. 409 00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:39,074 Exactly, Israeli. 410 00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:44,751 She drove a Belgian car whose license plate starts with DXH. 411 00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:48,592 Correct. From Belgium, that's no coincidence. 412 00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:52,875 I'm expecting your men in half an hour. 413 00:36:53,720 --> 00:36:56,792 I suggest you do that indeed. 414 00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:01,355 Hotel Listermann... Isn't that near the station? 415 00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:03,556 Yes, I believe that too. 416 00:37:05,240 --> 00:37:08,357 Why are the Israelis after you? 417 00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:11,990 You weren't involved anyway in the persecution of the Jews? 418 00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:14,116 No, that's probably not the motive. 419 00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:19,195 No, if this woman is from Belgium, is there a connection with Van Eyck. 420 00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:23,634 We really need to do something about him. 421 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:29,797 This is the best clue, Kari. Kessler is a bigwig. 422 00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:37,597 We'll just wait for him to get us leads to the Comrades' Work... 423 00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:42,151 ...and then we'll get 'em all. -That takes a lot. 424 00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:50,876 Bauer. You have a call for me. 425 00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:55,151 Just keep it going on secure line 38, please. 426 00:37:57,360 --> 00:37:59,715 Bauer. Hello, Tom. 427 00:37:59,880 --> 00:38:04,510 Richard, it is Van Eyck-Dorf interview already broadcast? 428 00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:07,399 Yes, on the BRT. It caused quite a stir. 429 00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:12,509 Tell me: Is your department prepared? to do something about this? 430 00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:15,717 I can't say that. Why not? 431 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:19,395 I'll call you when I have more information. That won't last long. 432 00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:21,915 Can I do anything for you? -No. 433 00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:27,108 I'll speak to that producer later, and we also have a file ourselves. 434 00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:31,910 If you take action, will you pass it on? -I will. 435 00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:34,159 Goodbye. 436 00:38:41,240 --> 00:38:45,552 Tom Deakin, MIS. Wanted to know whether I had seen that BRT program. 437 00:38:45,720 --> 00:38:48,280 And there's something else. Well? 438 00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:50,431 My conversations are being monitored. 439 00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:56,031 You can't know that. -Really. I can feel it in my water. 440 00:38:57,920 --> 00:38:59,512 Mr. Bauer. 441 00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:07,953 Bauer. -With Maurer. I received a report. 442 00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:11,556 Yes. -Can we discuss that? 443 00:39:11,720 --> 00:39:13,551 Naturally. 444 00:39:13,720 --> 00:39:16,632 When do you have time? -I'll be right there. 445 00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:25,348 That didn't last long. 446 00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:34,351 He's expecting you. 447 00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:42,153 Hey, Richard. Come on. 448 00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:48,911 Sit down. 449 00:39:56,040 --> 00:40:00,750 Well, Richard. I have your work followed with interest in this department. 450 00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:04,913 You are diligent, efficient, popular with your colleagues... 451 00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:07,674 ...and with the people with whom we collaborate. 452 00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:10,559 Fine. Excellent. 453 00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:16,749 But sometimes we push out of enthusiasm certain steps... 454 00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:23,029 ...which, without our knowledge, our superiors do not find desirable. 455 00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:27,152 Cigarette? Get one of those. 456 00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:30,949 They are not very strong. I have them made in London. 457 00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:32,872 Thank you, no. 458 00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:35,478 Very wise. 459 00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:42,752 You're on the case around a certain Manfred Dorf. 460 00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:45,036 May I ask why? 461 00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:49,910 It was claimed in a TV interview that he is the SS man Ludwig Kessler. 462 00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:54,915 It seemed worth it to me so I started the normal procedure. 463 00:40:56,040 --> 00:41:00,795 Unfortunately, another part of our department is working on this. 464 00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:03,076 And with other things. 465 00:41:03,240 --> 00:41:09,315 And they are very angry that someone of mine staff, without consulting anyone... 466 00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:14,508 ...jeopardizes their business through thoughtless actions. 467 00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:17,638 Richard, because of you I am in a difficult position. 468 00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:19,836 I'm sorry. I didn't know. 469 00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:27,555 If this is Dorf Kessler, then this is Surely this is a matter for this agency? 470 00:41:27,720 --> 00:41:33,750 We are not tracking war criminals now more on. That is a waste of time and money. 471 00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:36,992 I only tried the files to keep it up to date. 472 00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:41,712 Considering the inevitable attention from the press... 473 00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:45,156 it seems good to me if you take your leave now. 474 00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:49,632 Let's make it two months. Then everything can blow over. 475 00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:52,519 That will save us a lot of trouble. 476 00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:56,353 But I don't really want to go on leave. 477 00:41:56,520 --> 00:42:02,470 Dear Richard, I don't suggest that take your holiday. It's an order. 478 00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:05,200 When the ministries discover this all hell breaks loose. 479 00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:09,239 And I don't want any of my people being called to task. 480 00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:10,833 Starting tomorrow. 481 00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:15,079 Right, yes.